Jamie Levy Guest Talk at Coventry University: Video

Jamie Levy delivers a guest talk as a visiting lecturer to students at Coventry University.  The topics include business, Leadership, Teamwork, Partnerships, Management Consulting, and more. 


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Video Transcript Below Video

Jamie Levy  00:10

Just as a brief introduction, so my name is Jamie Levy, I was sitting where you’re sitting a long time ago. So I’ve been here, this is where I actually had my first day at Coventry University, while sitting in this room. So it was an interesting position for me to be back here again, and come back here probably once a year. To do roughly the same thing for everyone here. What I want to run through is this is leadership as a management consultant. That’s primarily because that’s what I do. Okay, so I’m management consultant, I came here to Coventry in 1994. For my sense, after having not done very well at once a levels, the time and I came here and spent four years three years here in one year in the south of France, studying, best thing I ever did was being here. So again, all I can say to you is make everything you can out of it while you’re here, because it really is a worthwhile experience. In terms of leadership and management consultancy, what I wanted to do is just give you what the definition is, if anyone’s got any questions, stick your hands up, ask me or ask away, I will try and answer but don’t know the answer. I’ll tell you, I don’t know the answer. So leadership, what is leadership? And the first thing I’m going to give you is a dictionary definition to make it nice and simple. But the leadership definition is guiding, directing or influencing. Okay. And there’s a lot of different forms and ways of being a leader, and ways that I’ve seen leaders and worked as a leader in terms of guiding, directing and influencing management consultant, what is that? For those of you that may have worked in practice before anyone been working in industry before, put your hands up? Or gone quiet, that’s even better. So I’m not going to justify myself, management consultant tends to be a bit of a bad word. People use it as a bad word, tend to be those people that don’t do very much in charge lots of money. Okay, that’s what people think of us as we don’t necessarily like that in reality. Okay. So just to give you an idea, our job is to create value for an organisation through improved performance, and by providing objective advice. Now, the only thing that’s different in terms of my definition, because I’ll put both of these these together, is this. Okay, it’s implementable, okay. And a lot of people out there as management consultants will work with you provide advice and help you. But the advice that they give doesn’t actually work. Okay. You try and deliver in practice, it won’t work. Okay. What I do and what I’ve done for a number of years and working with different companies, is actually implement the advice that I’ve given examples of great leaders. So what I want you to do is shout out some great who you think are great leaders. Steven Gerrard, okay. Who else? Bill Gates. Anyone else? Steve Jobs. Nelson Mandela. Richard Branson. Richard Branson. Gaddafi. Wayne Rooney. Who was that? Dalai Lama? Okay. Hello. Anyone else? Alex, Alex Ferguson. Okay. All good ones. You can see you can see the list behind you. minds mind slightly controversial. I’ve actually put some there that are controversial on purpose. Mum and Dad. Think of that think of what they do to you. And what they’ve done for you as a child, everything your development the whole way through as a lot of it’s come from your mum and dad, they’ve, they’ve led you through that life. They’ve led you through probably the first 18 years of your life. Okay. God, that could be quite controversial. It’s got a good leader built the world. So you know, maybe it’s a good leader, in terms of some of the other people up here, and some of the definitions that are put up here. And in terms of some of the things that they’ve done, Hitler, well, people disagree. people agree. We may not like what he did. But ultimately, he brought Germany from a dominant from a very, very weak economy to a major power across Europe and still a major power today. Whether we’re like that or not, that is the reality of what happened with what the what he did. Sam Walton, okay. Founder of Walmart. We’ve all been to Asda, I’m guessing. Yeah. Okay. So again, that’s another one as the Walmart one of the one of the 10th largest companies in the world. And he has fundamental values, those fundamental values when he built the company still exists today. He built the company rather a long time ago. One of the fundamental values he believed in was, don’t follow money, follow your passion and take care of your people. That’s what he that’s what he fundamentally believed in, it still exists in the business. There are obviously lots of arguments and discussions about that. Whether there’s arguments about as the people at the moment being paid the right amount of money in one area or the other. Those are still going on, they always will go on and every corporation will have those issues. Bill Gates, success comes with great vision. failures are learning lessons and actions speak louder. Okay. Has anyone ever felt that failure is something bad? Just put your hand up if you think failure is something bad. Okay, interesting view, okay. The way I look at failure as failure as a good is a chance to try you’ve tried something, it’s worth a go. You’ve got to try it. If you don’t try it, you ain’t gonna win. Okay. So that’s Bill Gates, Winston Churchill, another person, we all know what he did. He had experience he had charisma, and inspiration and projected optimism. Okay, we’ve all heard a lot of the speeches that you might have read and heard about some of the speeches from him. And, you know, that’s a fantastic place to be. And a fantastic person to learn from. These people are just people to learn from, okay. They’re great leaders. That’s all leadership is about great leaders. Okay? What is leadership as a consultant, okay. Now, those people who don’t know what this is, this is a nice big tanker. These are the little lines. And this is what we call a pilot boat. everyone’s seen these before. You notice a very small pilot boat with a great big tanker that turns out, okay. This is the company companies this great big tanker, okay? It doesn’t move fast. Okay? It goes in one direction and keeps on going. If you want it to keep on going, it will keep on going. Okay, you can stop it occasionally change a few motors change a few engines put some new people on, but it keeps going in that direction. This is the leader, the latest pilot boat, the latest boat that’s going to tell it which way to go. Okay, once it’s out in the big ocean, it’s running itself into direction. Once it comes closer to port, and they have to navigate. They’re going to use pilot boats. And the more pilot boats he needs, the more it’s going to be moved around. Where’s the consultant? I’m the guidewire. Okay, and these little guidewires that sit here, I don’t look very important. But that’s all I do. Okay, I’m the connection between sometimes between the leader and the change that they want to deliver, and the boat that needs to move. Okay. So it’s all about change. Leadership leads into change, and is a lot of change. Okay. And you see some of the greatest leaders that you’ve talked about there, they’ve changed situations from one area to another in one direction to another direction. And the reason they’ve done that is because they’ve driven that in one direction, which they believe is the right direction, doesn’t necessarily mean that leader is one person can be a bunch of people, okay? It can be everyone in the company is decide it’s to be decided as to what the company needs. Okay. There are a number of different companies that have lots of leaders. There a number of companies that choose very clearly have one leader at the top of the business. Depends what you want as a business and how you define it. Everyone’s gone quiet. There’s no questions from anyone. That’s good. Okay, leadership. Has anyone ever heard of this man? Stephen COVID? And a few people? Yes. Okay. One of his books, that’s been probably one of the biggest sellers this century is Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He actually has another one called the eighth habit and various other ones that he’s produced now. And what he talks about is the definition of what a leader of the different levels of a business are. Okay? So, and my personal belief is the leader is the bottom of the rung. The people that are actually the most important in the business are actually the workers at the top. Okay, that might be upside down from what we all think. But the reality is, is nothing can happen unless the worker gets the job done. Okay, so you have the leader at the bottom, you have the management, which I believe is somewhere in the middle, and then you have the workers at the top level, and the analogy that Steven COVID gives to try and define everything. He says the worker is all the people in the field. They’re clearing the field, they’re cutting the field, they’re cutting the grass, they’re helping to grow whatever needs to be grown there. Okay. That’s their job. They’re there to do that. There are people there like the foreman who will make sure the workers are doing what they need to be doing to make sure they get breaks. They’ll be the restaurants they’ll be the canteens to make sure they get food and water, okay. But the person who’s at the top of that rung the next level up sorry, is the Manager and the manager’s job is to make sure that the resources and the skills are there to do the work in terms of clear clearing that field. Okay, so you have, you know, 1000 people that clearing fields, but are they being trained? Well, to clean the clear the fields? Do they have the appropriate technology to clear the fields? Should they be using tractors? Should they be using saws? What should they be using? That’s management’s job. Leaders job, you clearing the wrong field. Okay, the leader is there to tell you what the direction is and what the direction needs to be. And if you’re clearing the wrong field, we all need to change over. Everyone got that? It started to make sense to people. Okay. One of the big biggest consultancies in the world is Accenture. Everyone heard of them? They’re all over the place, many countries. So one of the studies they looked at was a research on key issues of executive leadership. What are the key issues that we face in the today? What are we facing for the future in terms of executive leadership. And one of the things Accenture talked about was all of these different profiles that a leader would need to have going forward. So this is probably a bit of a guideline for you, if you want to be a leader in the future. These are the guidelines in terms of where you are. And what I’m going to do is I’m going to focus in on two areas, build teamwork and embracing change. Okay, so key areas anticipating opportunity, we all need to do that we need to see where there are opportunities that a business might need to find. Okay, and that might be, you know, looking in different markets, it might be looking in, sell it looking at selling in different ways. But anticipating that opportunity before it’s too late. Creating a shared vision. Okay, think of some of the companies, some of the companies you’ve named today, we talk about Microsoft, creating a shared vision, very clear on the direction. What does everyone think of Microsoft Office, good product, bad products, good products, oh, everyone thinks is good product could do better. Okay, it’s probably one of the only products in the world that you buy the nose, you know, we’ll break, it will break, we all know that that dreaded blue screen, where the computer will stop, the computer starts again. And then we’re all waiting for it. But we all know that’s gonna happen. But we all buy it. So again, Microsoft have a clear strategy in terms of that, you’ll notice that their products come out probably every three to four years, you’ll notice a new product that comes out. And they don’t complete their cycle of development until about a year before that. Okay. So it’s a very clear strategy that Microsoft have that that’s actually deliberate, you might think it’s not, but it’s deliberate in terms of the way they do it, they may or may not want it to be as bad as it happens sometimes. But actually, it’s deliberate in terms of the way they product lifecycle, what they do, profile of a lead to develop and empower people, okay? We need to empower people at work underneath us, it’s much the same as you are here at university. You know, it’s up to you to make what you want out of this. lecturers will help you lecturers will give you all the information they can, they’ll give you all the books, you can, you can read everything. But ultimately, it’s up to you to make that choice. If you want to do that work. If you don’t want to do that work, you can probably roll in in the morning, sit just at the back in the corner, and you know, fall asleep as I used to do occasionally. And you know, that’s fine, you’ll get through the exam. Is that what you want? Okay. So again, they were the leaders here in this in this university, are here to develop and empower you, but they are empowering you. So up to you to take advantage of that. Appreciate cultural diversity. You’re all here. I think I’ve heard the message this morning, that in this university, it’s still culturally diverse as it was when I was here. Probably more culturally diverse, you have more more geographies? We were predominantly European at the time when I was here, but it’s definitely not predominantly European right now. Okay, so you are building you’re coming through this cultural diversity, and appreciate it, learn from it, learn the differences. Everyone’s different. Everyone works in different ways. I’ve worked in France, I’ve worked in Australia. I’ve worked in the States, I’ve worked in many countries in Europe and some places in Asia. Everyone’s different. They all work in different ways. Okay. That’s not to say one is bad. That’s not to say one is good. That’s to say everyone works in different ways. appreciate the fact that they all work in different ways. They have different views. They see things differently. But appreciate that and a leader needs to do that. I’ll drop those two, because I’ll give you some more detail applies technological savvy. How many of you are technologically savvy? Do you all feel you are? Yeah, that’s good. Okay, so it’s becoming more More, more and more demanding to do that, especially in the world that I live in, people are asking for things faster. People are asking for things quicker. Okay? That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best way. I don’t know any of you that know the story of Steve Jobs as mentioned this afternoon, this evening, Steve Jobs and his daughter mentioned on TV that Steve Jobs refused to give refused to give his daughter an iPad. Neither of them had an iPad, they were refused by his father. And that was on purpose. He wanted them to be technologically savvy, to understand how the works, but he’s to say you’re not having one because what I want you to do is communicate. Okay, so there were technological savvy, okay, probably the best technologically savvy family of the world. But ultimately, they weren’t allowed when he didn’t want them to do that. He wanted them to communicate, encourage constructive challenge. Now, how many of us have had destructive challenge before? That’s where somebody puts you down, as opposed to brings you up. All saying that everyone who seems to everyone seems to ring true in that, okay, I’ve had a lot, I’ve had a lot of that. And I’ve been a lot of clients that have done that with me, this generally, most of the CEOs that I’ve worked with, they don’t tend to be like that. They tend to be quite constructive. They tend to really want to move forwards, they want to try and build this business. That’s what they’re there for. They’re there to move the business forward. But they’ll encourage that constructive challenge, but they don’t want that destructive challenge. Okay. Ensure customer satisfaction. I think we all know what that is. And I’m not gonna harp on that one for a long time, achieve a competitive advantage. There are lots of businesses out there that achieve great competitive advantages, and sell products that we all use. Look at the iPad. Look at when it came out. Look at everyone. Everyone’s still using them. I can see a few of them around here. Look at iMac look at the iPhone, all of these things, competitive advantages. And what’s happening now? Is Apple starting to see a little slurry a little slow down and what their sales are like. And Samsung’s picking up massively. Okay, that’s because Samsung has seen a competitive advantage. They’ve thrown out their androids. And you know, people have gone Okay, iPhone 700 pounds, Samsung 400 pounds, which we’ll choose, sometimes I’m happy to pay the extra money. Sometimes I’m not demonstrate personal mastery. You’re all here. So I’m guessing you’re looking at, you’re looking to be masters of something. Okay. Whether it be business, whether it be engineering, whether it be leadership, whether it be global studies, it’s entirely up to you. But it’s about understanding and understanding what you’re actually going to add value to a business. Share leadership. And you finding a lot more, a lot more talk about the sharing of leadership, have any of us had lectures and read books about sharing of leadership? I don’t know, if you have if it’s become part of it. It’s becoming a big thing around the world now sharing leadership as opposed to one leader at the top of the business. Okay, some of that works. Hands on the business, depends who you are. depends where you are. And probably the key one for me. And if anyone talks to me, anyone talks to me in terms of what I would say, of all of this list is key. Living the values, okay? practice what you preach, don’t tell people you’re going to do something and then don’t do it. Okay? Because you’re seen as the person that they can’t rely on. They can’t trust they don’t want to follow, leaders get followed all the names. You’ve mentioned, Steven Gerrard, Wayne Rooney, they get followed by the rest of the team. Why they followed by the rest of the team, because people trust them. Okay, the living those values, they’re actually doing what they what people see them doing. You know, they are working, they’re training football, they’re training very hard. And they’re spending many hours doing that. That’s what they’ve got to do. They’re living the values that they’ve created. Change. What has changed? Has anyone seen this before? Put your hands up if you have seen this before, but one of the front, anyone else seen it? Okay, any change you go through in life? Doesn’t matter what it is. You go through this? You can’t help it. And is there a question? No. Did you have a question, but just as just to talk you through this. As a management consultant. My job is to recognise that all people will go through this. There is no choice. You will follow this. Think about any change you’ve gone through in your life. One of them might be coming to university, okay, you’ve left home, you leave home, you potentially you don’t want to get okay. I don’t want to go. I’m denying the change. I’m saying I’m not going to I don’t want to go home or just as you’re about to leave home, you go, Well, maybe I won’t go to university, it’s not the place I want to be. Maybe I won’t go to Coventry, it’s not the place I want to be. So you deny it. Okay, you go through that denial, then you get to anger, you arrive at university, you don’t know anyone, okay, you’re sitting in an apartment or sitting at home, and you start to get angry at yourself, you think, why did I do this? Okay, and you really frustrated yourself? and think, why did I come here? I don’t really want to be here. Okay. Next step, we start bargaining with ourselves, we sort of say, Well, actually, it’s not so bad, really, you know, it’s not so bad. Well go out for a few drinks. And people are quite friendly, you know, and I have her go out and play rugby. And it’s quite nice. So you start to bargain a little bit with yourself. But before you get there, you’re going to get depressed. Okay, you are going to go through depression, you’re going to get to a state where you feel depressed, and you think, what the hell am I doing here, I really want to go home. And that’s the lowest in terms of your performance, your personal performance you’ll be at, okay? Once you start to do that, you start to explore, and you start to explore new opportunities you’ve going out and having a drink is the same as you would have done before. Okay, you start to explore and look at new things that you could be doing. And you start to look at things, you start to look at things in different ways you start to see see things in different ways. But what we can see here is, performance is growing, you’re getting better. Okay. And as long as you’re getting better, you’re on the right path, you’re going through change. When you get out to the end, and you commit to doing say it’s Coventry, you commit to doing the whatever you’re here to do, you commit to being at university, you commit to doing the work that you’re going to do, your performance will increase. Okay. And that happens with any change you’ve you’ve had in your life doesn’t matter what it is, those of you who’ve ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome, women, women or men falling in love with our captors. When you are when you’re eventually taken out of that situation, a psychologist will take you where you believe you are, which is here, all the way back. They’ll bring you all the way back here and bring you all the way forwards again, through the sessions that they bring you through. One of the things they might ask you is, what would you feel if one of your friends was kidnapped? How would you feel? How do you think they should feel towards that kidnapper? And you’d say, Well, I think they should feel you should feel hate, they should feel anger, suddenly, you’re straight back here, okay? And you’ll bring them back through that cycle. My job as a management consultant is actually to understand that everyone is going to go through that. Okay, everyone is going to fight me, they are going to deny this change is going to happen. They are going to be angry with me because they don’t want me here. They’re going to bargain with me and say, Well, can I get away with just doing this little amount of work and not doing everything? They’re not going to tell me that they’re depressed. Okay. But I’ll recognise it’s coming. I’ll start to see the masculine asking questions and saying, shall we move forwards? What’s next? How can I do these? How can I deliver? And then there’ll be committed, okay. I have to identify that that is happening. And when it’s working with leaders, when it’s working with businesses, everyone expects that leaders will expect me to go through that. Okay, they’ll expect me to see people doing that and tell them where I think they are in that cycle. Teamwork. Do you will do teamwork here. You’ll do in team projects. You will love it. Those those who love it, put your hands up. Come on, I want to see your loves that. You will love it. Those who hate it, put your hands up. Okay, guess what? You’re about to get into the world of work and you have no choice. Teamwork, is it okay, it will happen. You will be there you will do teamwork. And it is frustrating. Okay? It is hellish. Okay. And I remember being here having to do a final year project and number of people in the projects that was to English to English people, and everyone else’s French. Okay. And the the the frustration that was there was amazing. Because you’re working with people who look at things in a completely different way. But you have to go through these stages. Have you all seen these stages of team work? Obviously, you’re all nodding at me. That’s good to hear. Okay, so forming, storming, norming performing. close out is is a step that sometimes gets added in. But what I’m trying to tell you here is how it’s different as a consultant and how, how was how was a leader that you work inside those so at the forming stage. My job as a consultant is to help the team generate the opportunities okay and encourage some informality around that. That’s what I want to do. I want people to do that to generate the opportunities, there are no bad ideas. Okay? When we first start, it’s about getting people to open up. Remember that change cycle, at this point in forming, they’re probably going to be an anger and denial, okay? And I’ve got to try and take them through but the leader, his job is to arrange the rain to the get togethers. His job is to agree the ground rules, how we are going, if we disagree, we are going to go into the car park and fight. Or we are going to write things down on a piece of paper and agree what we think the right way forwards is, and agree the reporting methods and identify the individual strengths. Everyone has strengths inside those teams that you’re working in today. Can’t help that. That is the way it is. Everyone, everyone has pluses and everyone has challenges. Again, we’ve got to work with what those are. In terms of storming, guess what tensions are normal. You probably going through this and some of your team work that you’re doing. You know, as you go through to next year, think about this, as you go through to the next projects, encourage the team to change the rules, challenge those rules, that may want to be different, okay? They may not agree with those rules, the rules may be based on where you think the rules should be. And everyone might need to change those rules. That’s fine. Let’s accept that. Let’s actually work with that. And let’s actually move forward on that. But avoid the isolation as a consultant, my job is to make sure people aren’t isolated on their own, bring them into that conversation, okay? So if you’re in those teams, bring them in, bring those people in, people that are isolated, usually have some really good ideas, okay, but they just are scared or they’re, they’re angry, and they don’t want to be there. So you need to bring them in the leader. He discusses and agrees the roles and responsibilities. Okay, he arranges the planning sessions. That’s his role, not mine. My job is to help work with those people, in terms of norming, help the team to define the problems, ensure evident leadership and be open to all ideas. Again, we’re still into that questioning phase. We’re still into we’re not through the acceptance phase yet, we’re still moving forward through questioning. The leader will direct the problem solving sessions, less than an act on the feedback and challenge team on the outputs. Okay, it’s their job. Their job is to challenge me on the outputs, and challenge the team on the outputs to see what we think those outputs should be. And if they need to change, the leader knows the wider part of the business that the individual team may not know. In terms of performing praise people, okay. And I think you probably, probably, if you’re anything like me, we’re all good at getting the project done. Once it’s done, we forget to say, Well, that was good, wasn’t it? We did a good job. Maybe you do go out for a few drinks afterwards. Okay. But that’s as far as we go. A lot of time, that praise is kind of forgotten a lot. Okay. Again, as a consultant, my job is to make sure that people don’t forget that, make sure that they actually remember to praise each other, it works well, we all did a good job, you know, that was a good job, go out for a night out, okay. And some of that might be different. Some of that’s kind of, you know, been different ways. in different parts of the world that I’ve done. What you might find is the leader actually starts to highlight some of the individual successes, and some of the successes that some of those people have actually delivered on. And some of the examples I’ve seen is where CEOs have given people awards for the from the business, because of their outstanding performance in that team. They’ve given it to the team, they’ve given it to individuals, it’s up to the leader. They may see somebody as outstanding, they may see somebody that’s delivered something that’s absolutely amazing. Okay, but I can’t, I can’t, I can’t identify that. What I need to do is make sure that we celebrate, review, progress and health check. We’ve always got a health check. Okay, as we start to get into this performing stage, you can see does it look a bit strange. We’re kind of fill finishing the project as we’re getting into performing. Do you all fit do you get? Do you sort of feel that? Have you had that before? When you’ve been here before years ago, you’ve been in projects, you will seem like you’re working really well together, and suddenly you think we’ve done, we’re done, the project’s finished anything, but we’re working well together. Now. It’s all working really well. That’s normal. Okay. In terms of the close out, encourage feedback, summarise the achievements, celebrate success, and review the lessons learnt. The leaders job is to make sure that continues into the rest of the business, not just stops here. Okay? My job as a consultant is to encourage that feedback and encourage that that move through, envision the future and try and make sure that those things change. management consultancy, this is probably the one only slide where I’m going to actually talk about management consultants, in the sense of really giving you a definition, there’s two, there’s two types of consultants, management consultants, you have consultants and contractors. Okay, and I’ve been both, I’ve worked for the big consultancies, and I’m currently working as a contractor. So what you might what you’ll find is the difference is you can see at the top, you’ll see, usually the consultant is not responsible for the outcome, great place to be right to report walk away and never it’s not your problem. Okay? always a great place to be contractor. I’m responsible for the outcome. Okay? I’ve been in both positions. The reason why you’ve got a flashing line is this line is blurring between the two. Over the last 10 years, 1015 years, what I’ve seen as a change in consultancy as a field is that line is very much blurring. clients do not want big reports that they put in a filing cabinet and never look at again, what they want is a report that can be delivered, okay? What they want is this statement that can be delivered, they may want you to deliver it, they may not want you to deliver it, they may want you to write much as much as what I’m doing at the moment, they may want you to start the process off, and then leave, okay, and facilitate and train their people so that they can actually have their own permanent people that do that job. That’s where I am doing now. Okay, I’ve been in multiple different ways. But you can see the difference between a consultant and a contractor who wants to be the consultant. Put your hands up if you want to be the consultant. I’ve got a colleague of mine here, and we’re interested to see the answer. He wants to be the contractor.

But it’s sorry, isn’t it possible to come anyway? I mean, if you’re a consultant, you continually go to businesses that ended up not heeding your advice and failing to continue to hire you in the future. It’s an interesting question. And that’s why the lines are blurring. The lines are blurring very much in terms of lately, because what’s happening is people are seeing the results of consultancy work. And that is not delivering what they actually want. So they’re pushing a lot more transparency never used, there was never as much transparency as there is now. You would find that some of the typical consultancy projects, those of you know, some of the big consultancies, you’ve got people like Booz Allen vane, McKinsey, these people, they were at BCG, yep. Then they’ll write these big reports, massive reports, some of which can be delivered, some of which can’t, okay. And they will tell you that they can be delivered. And if they can’t be delivered are sets because you didn’t deliver it. That’s your fault. That the issue is is that as a contractor, and this is a this is an interesting parts of the field. As a contractor, I live on my reputation, I generally won’t work for a massive business. So if I don’t deliver, I won’t get another job. reputational, it’s a consultancy level. And I’ve seen this a number of times where you see a consultancy, I used to work for KPMG. And you’ll see consultancies go in. And the famous phrase is, nobody ever gets fired for hiring KPMG or a big consultancy. And the main reason for that is because their names there. But the other thing you do get is because KPMG and because McKinsey are in the office, everyone suddenly starts working harder. It’s just a fact of life. They’re sitting in your office, there are people in there that everyone thinks are looking to potentially get rid of you. Okay, to take that job, everyone suddenly starts working harder. So if it costs me a small amount of money, for my productivity to go up, 10% is it worth it? Yeah. To say your reputation of the consultant company is so much more advantageous than bringing a contractor? Absolutely. Absolutely. And that might be right might that might be, you know, that might not be a right thing. But that is exactly where it sets. You know, I’ve never heard of a CEO, any CEO that I’ve ever spoken to, has never been fired for bringing in a large consultants. Because you will see that you will see productivity go up, you will see performance growth, there’s nothing everyone thinks you’re after the job. I’ll give you an example of one thing was mentioned to me. I was walking into US immigration for contracts that it was on at the time. And the the immigration officer turned around to me and said, so what are you doing here in America? I said, I’m here as a consultant. I’m here to work as a management consultant for business. So said does that mean Americans are going to lose jobs because you’re here? Okay. I didn’t want to answer to him that one, how am I going to answer? Okay, that’s the stigmatism that’s sitting around consultancy right now, and always has, you know, and it’s got worse over time. And I don’t think it’s naturally it is right. There are situations where writing a report and telling people what they need to do is the right thing. There are times when actually delivering it and then following it through is the right thing. It’s about a balance of that sometimes leaders or companies pass the buck off to consultant when they don’t want to make the hard decision of downsizing employees? If they do that, my my advice would be, my advice would be have I seen that happen? Yes. My advice would simply be you will get the same result as if you don’t bring them in anyway. The stigma stems from the stigma stems from stigmas, a lot of stigma stems from press coverage, right now, you know, progress. You know, you see a lot of consultancies that are spending people, large companies spend a lot of money on consultants, and then say, Well, what did it deliver? And that’s what happens, you get to the end of that phase, and people say, what did it deliver? And if it doesn’t show tangible results, not always it’s going to be able to show a tangible result, then it’s hard to actually justify. So yes, it can be one of those problems, looking for a qualitative result.

Related Article: Procurement Management


Attitude change

Organisation as opposed to improving on the bottom line?

My simple answer to you is that a chief exec is looking for one thing, one thing only have a guess what he’s looking for. Now, somebody’s got it their share price, chief executives, mostly bonus, most of them are bonused on the shares. Okay, so they’re interested in share price alone, their interest market cap, they’re interested in growth, they may be targeted on bottom line growth, there may be targets in top line growth, it’s entirely up to them. But they are really only interested in share price. every conversation I’ve ever had with the chief exec always tends to be where the share price was, where the share price is going to be. And I’ll give you an example, I’m actually going to give you a live example of a company I’ve just come out of. And this is a footsie 100, I can’t tell you who they are, okay. And I’m going to show you the share price, I’m showing you the share price as it went through. And when I went into the business, and there was a team of us that went in, there was a team of three. And I’m giving you my view of what went on. In 2007, the business acquired a huge amounts of competitors. The business grew 600% in three years. So the share price went like a balloon went up to this 718 point five a share. Everyone thought Wow, this is amazing. Okay, fantastic. It did well, in 2007 2008. The market determined there was no benefit from the acquisition trail, all it did was increased revenue, it didn’t actually increase profitability. So so the share price started to tumble. In 2009, the share price tumbled and hit at lowest points. Okay. And that was the lowest point in 15 years that company had ever been. In 2010, the chairman who had gone through that tragic transition, decided to make a commitment to the shareholders to live to deliver what he called operational benefit. Okay. So it wasn’t growth by acquisition, it was growth organically. So they would deliver benefits by the business, actually taking out costs, actually driving better behaviour, putting up price, those kinds of things. It wasn’t about growth in revenue, massive growth in revenue, there was growth in revenue. And it continued to grow. The company had huge parts of his business in the Middle East. And as a business in the Middle East, in the construction industry. It was in massive growth at the time, okay. In 2011, a new group chief executive was brought in. And that group chief executive brought in a new managing director in Germany, because he saw the business in Germany was in freefall. And he also, he also decided to make some other smaller changes at the time, but get his feet under the rugs. You know, he wanted to understand what was going on in the business. 2012 I come in with three or four people. Now our role is this operationally transform that business, okay. And that means focusing on cost. That is what he wanted. He had to focus on cost. But he was very aware that this was a change programme. It would change everything wider than just this small narrow area that we were focusing on. He knew that. Okay, but he was very driven individual. Okay. And I’m going to go back afterwards and show you what I felt to the chief exec. In terms of those Accenture characteristics. Everything started we started the programme we started to deliver we showed benefits the business for that change, okay, we don’t want to do it. We don’t want to do we don’t want to do this. We don’t believe the numbers that you’re producing. We don’t believe the information you’re telling us. Okay. That change management cycle. Okay, you can see the anger, the denial, everything’s in there. In 2013, the chief exec sacked the UK, MD. The Middle East MD, and took over both roles as group chief exec, and the UK and the Middle East MD. I’ve never seen any chief exec in my career that’s done that never. Okay. And our delivery started to flow through to the bottom line. And there were serious benefits to the bottom line, the business was seeing that being delivered. So the business couldn’t deny it now. Okay. And that meant rationalisation that meant, you know, changing the strategy and the way it did things. And the way it worked 2014 this year, the businesses out started outsourcing some of its what we would call the back office functions. Okay. And some of that is logistics and various other elements that are actually disappearing from that business now. Okay. That is the bottom line challenge, okay. Look at the time it’s taken, taken three years to do that. that change is not a 10 minute change. You know, one of the things that I’d learned coming out, I felt coming out of university, I can change the world, I’ll do it in 10 minutes. It ain’t gonna happen in 10 minutes. Okay. That’s the reality. And that’s the first thing you get taught when you start work, it takes time. These things change, it’s a big ship. Okay. He’s the pilot boat. Okay. His famous phrase was, this is mine shape, my train set. And under train driver. That was what he said all the time to people, he empowered everyone. But he wanted to make it clear the direction the business was going. Okay, and made it very clear. Just to give you an idea of what I felt about the CEO that I worked with, against those criteria that we saw before, in terms of the demonstration and what I could see, he absolutely created a shared vision. He had a very clear management team, the management team used to meet every month, they used to fly from all over the world. And they came to his his meeting. Okay, and it was all talking about strategy and vision. Did he anticipate opportunity? I’m not sure he did. He may have done it, but I didn’t see it. Okay. So that’s where I would be partially critical in terms of what I saw. Did he develop and empower people? Absolutely. I very much had the had the ability to deliver what he asked me to deliver. I very much had the ability to build the team that he asked me to deliver on. And actually, you know, he empowered other people to make decisions they’d never been allowed to make, before. They’d always been reserved at a managing director level, they were brought down to a local level. Okay, so he empowered people at a much lower level than it ever happened before in that business. appreciates cultural diversity. they existed in Germany, Middle East, France, Belgium and the UK. Do you think he couldn’t appreciate cultural diversity? If he was doing that role? It’s not possible. Okay. He took over as chief executive, the Middle East business, being an Englishman, okay, running a UK business and running the global business. So we had to appreciate that cultural diversity. Okay. And prior to me joining, I heard stories such as people in the Middle East who were in the business, they drew straws as to who was going to go to prison, because the company was in trouble in the country. Okay. Those were the kinds of things that were going on in the business that had existed, were various things that I’d found while I was there, you know, I’d found things that insurances that were illegal, okay. There were things that were being sold in insurance that shouldn’t have been sold, those things were going on. So we had to appreciate that cultural diversity, building teamwork and partnerships. The whole business became teams. It was a business of individuals that actually didn’t actually talk to each other. They didn’t get on with each other. They didn’t like each other. And the countries didn’t like each other. He built that up. Okay. embracing change. I can’t say that I could not see that in everything he did. He wanted the change. He knew the change had to happen. The market was demanding the change of him, okay. And don’t get me wrong. He had reasons for it. He had personal reasons for it. And he had business reasons for it. But he had to embrace that change. He had to push people to deliver. He had to push people to take the change and make those questions live. Did he imply technological savvy? I have to say it. I don’t think he did. Okay, I think he was, he was he was a gentleman of much older age, didn’t really get on with technology at all. And was quite happy to admit that, but he put the right people in the right place to get that change to happen. Okay, especially in technology. Encourage constructive challenge. I remember one incident where one of the engineers who didn’t agree with something that he was doing, walked into his office, opened his door was always open, walked into his office and said, I don’t agree. I fundamentally disagree with what you’re doing here. And he said, Fine, sit down and let’s talk about it. Okay, and He sat there for three hours and talk through with an engineer about what he was doing and why he was challenging the norms that were in the business. The engineer and him didn’t agree at the end, they walked out disagreeing. And the the engineer agreed that what he was saying was his choice. Okay, and had to be done had to be done in a different way, achieve a competitive advantage? Absolutely. There’s no question about that, in terms of what he delivered in the marketplace. He had a dominant market position in the UK, I 60% of the market share in his market in the UK, and he drove prices up. Like, okay, so he made more money for his business, in a dominant market position. Okay. It’s very difficult to do that when people can just pick up the telephone and go to another competitor in two minutes. demonstrates personal mastery. From what I saw, yes, absolutely. Shares leadership, he believed that his managing directors were the people that had to deliver. He left them to deliver and it was up to them to deliver. I was one of those in the end, that had to deliver, it was up to me to drive that up to me to push that through. So yeah, absolutely shared the leadership lives, the values again, coming back to the bottom, one 100%. Of all the people I’ve ever worked with, in terms of Chief execs, I’ve never seen somebody so driven, so passionate about the change, and living that change. From top to bottom, you know, when he wanted to travel, he made sure that people were were travelling with him, so that he would actually explain to them what was going on in different countries. He pushed people to to move across geographical boundaries, which didn’t exist before. People in those different business units never talked to each other, never got on with each other never worked together. They absolutely did that say, for me, everything I saw about what he did live to the values. And that’s just one example of where I’ve seen them before. I’ve not got any more slides. But I’ve got time for questions if you’ve got. So I’m going to sit, stand quietly and listen.

Just pop up, we recognise that he couldn’t anticipate opportunities when he knew the opportunities that he could see. The issue was and the reason why brought consultants in was he wanted help to deliver. He knew that his spirit, his spirit sphere of influence meant that as a chief exec, he was sitting at the top of the field. So for him, he needed other people to be able to be inside the business and be able to deliver for him. That was his choice. Anyone else you’d like to do in your own Salton Sea or as a working as a contractor? The very different consultancies and contracts is very different. The consultancy, it’s more rewarding in some ways. as a consultant, it’s more rewarding in the sense that you actually get to work in a group of people who are very driven, work immensely long hours, immensely long hours. One of the projects I worked on, for example was we have three naval bases in the UK was outsourcing all of those naval bases and the works being done there. Working the time for KPMG. You know, a bunch of people that was working with very driven hours, mega hours that you were doing very different, very different to a consultant who may work those mega hours, but you’re on your own. You may be in a team of people if you bring those teams together. But if you’re not empowered to do that, you’re on your own. So it’s very different. I’ve been a contractor consultant for 15 years now. So different situations.

He says something that a consultant never takes responsibility for the outcome of an advice.  Yes. What, what is the situation when consultants input the contractor and I’ll give an example, where a consultancy has a contract to supply stuff to a particular organisation in a situation of outsourcing stuff, and consultancy had gone out of supplies. Now, the tune out of this stuff, let’s assume supply staff in about six or seven of them shows some level of incompetence or insubordinate instability. Now to take responsibility for that.

My argument would be that that’s actually not consultant. And that’s the point that’s actually that’s actually a contractor that’s doing that work for you. You’re actually employing them as a contract and not a consultant and I think that’s where then the lines are becoming very much blood. Because yes, the contractor should be responsible for that. I’ve outsourced many things many times and, and had exactly that situation where the wrong labour is put in, and the labour doesn’t work and the people don’t work in that situation? I would argue that the consultants not actually consultants, the consultants, actually a team of contractors, by the labelling themselves as a consultancy.  Firms like KPMG are recruiting for different companies in terms of what areas? Yeah, they do they do handle recruitment exercises I’ll give you and it’s interesting the KPMG s and the then you’ll find KPMG, and McKenzie is all do they all do recruitment, what you’ll find is that the recruitment they do is tend to be quite high level. And that tends to be their churn of business. So what you’ll find is that say, for example, KPMG, they will recruit CFOs, okay, and senior accountants and they, what they’ll do is they’ll move CFOs that they know, we’re looking for the end of their career in one business, and move them into another business. And the advantage to them is that that is a churn for business, that can bring more business, and there’s a motive behind it. It’s never done without self motivation. The reason they built those businesses is because at the end of the day, they’re working for five companies in the same industry, the people at the exact level in those industries are always going to turn around from one to the next. Somebody’s got to introduce them, it’s it leaves you to two companies that are going to do it. It’s either going to be recruitment companies that are going to do it senior recruitment companies, or it’s going to be a consultancy, that does one or the other. So that’s where that practice is built, have do they do more? Yeah, of course they do. But they, they see that that advantage and do more, I would argue that that is where they become concern, they actually become contractors, not consultants anymore. They’ve blurred that line. And that’s where I think the line is very blurred now. And it’s becoming more blurred as time goes on. Anyone else?



From graduate schemes tend to be larger corporations. That’s that’s the reality. And a lot of my friends who were here, I didn’t join the graduate scheme. And a lot of my friends who came from here, would tend to have gone into graduate schemes, IBM jagua, various other ones they’ve gone into. It takes a long time, and one of my friend who’s now over at Jaguar, he’s one of the heads of production over at jet over a Jaguar Land Rover. And he’s been there since you know, since he was 23. So he’s been there for 15 years now. And he’s one of the heads of production, he’s not the CEO, it does take a bit longer than that. So that’s all I can tell you. If you want to become the CEO of a smaller company, you may move out starting graduate scheme, and then move into a smaller company, where you’ve got an easier chance to progress quicker. That’s what I would say, bigger companies, it’s going to take longer time to do that. My advice?

Yep. Okay. Our personal vault.

Yep. So for leader when you manage when you change your product, so it has always been the same line of thought, at some point in your leadership, you get to know, okay, this is wrong. And what want to manage all your people to say, Hey, guys what are you saying?


This is right? It’s really tough, because it makes you look weak, like rubbish all your life. So how do you manage that to people?

Yeah, I think, you know, in terms of paradigm shift, and changing the way you view things, I think the the job of the leader is also to build that paradigm based on the people that are inside that business. And not just come in, not just come in cold. I think, you know, when the chief exec came in for this business that I’ve just talked about, he he had an idea in terms of where he wanted to go. And he talked with his management team about that some of those who’ve been in the industry for 20 to 30 years. So he built his his paradigm on the way things should go. If he was changing his paradigm, mid delivery strategy, I think he would have a big issue, unless there was something that was forcing him to do that. Okay. And that’s what I think if the market conditions or the business wasn’t performing, and it wasn’t going the right way, then you’ll have to change. That’s what I’ll have to do. We’ll have to live with making mistakes. Yeah. And that’s where I that’s where I asked you the question, do you believe failure is a bad thing? I don’t. I personally don’t some of the biggest. We all look at the government today. And we think, well, the government are, you know, failing, and they’re doing things wrong. They’re doing things wrong, and they’re doing things right. The Press will continue to report on the things that they’re doing wrong. Okay, but it’s got to be doing something right. You’re all sitting here. Okay, we’re all we’re all living. So they’ve got to be do certain things right today. Okay. It’s a case of, you know, being forced to change because something in terms of an external factor or an internal factors changed. And therefore you need to move. Okay. And and then it’s being agile enough to do that. There are businesses, plenty of businesses that have made mistakes. Okay. Pick Apple, Apple nearly went bankrupt at one point. I can have done that many times they’ve been in serious trouble many times. Okay, they’ve just driven forwards and driven forwards. Have they changed the strategy? Fundamentally? Yes. You know, from where they were previously? Absolutely, they have fundamentally changed their strategy. But they’ve driven a move forwards and continually innovated and move forward. And they believe that’s core to them. They believe innovation is core to them. Some people would say that they’re not really innovating anymore. And that’s the problem. It isn’t, it isn’t what they’re fundamentally about. That’s fine. Look at Dell. Dell is another example. Those of you know, Dell, Michael Dell’s bought the company back recently, Dell is a as a manufacturer, started to tank, he decided that as the as the principal founder of the business, and the owner, he decided that he would buy the business back, okay, venture capital firms helping him he bought the business back. And he’s turned it around. And that’s why you started to see Dell, and PC World, you started to see them in supermarkets, where they didn’t exist before you could only buy them on the internet. He believes that the business fundamentally didn’t move itself quick enough, didn’t didn’t adapt to the market conditions. So he’s come back in, ripped it apart. And again, Dells making money now. So there’s an example of a hat he has adapted. He’s had to change, but he’s had somebody else running the business moved. That makes sense, the answer? Anyone else?


My question. As a leader, you notice that your followers are not working environments.

The when I’ve seen this happen before, there’s obviously there’s extremes in terms of how you want to do that, how you want to go about how you want to go about bringing change, that the first thing that I would say is understand what those why they’re changing why they’re going in a different way, why they don’t believe in the fundamental strategy. That happens all the time. When there is a change programme, major change programmes in businesses, you will find people that will leave the business, they fundamentally do not agree with where it’s going. They fundamentally don’t want what it’s doing. And I’ll leave, they will leave. And that’s the way it is that’s going to happen, there are going to be people call it casualties of war, you know, there is going to be that. But there is an understanding that a leader needs to have and try and listen to people and see if there’s any merit in what they’re actually saying. Some of it may carry merits in terms of understanding the detail behind it. But what is the reason they what is the reason they don’t agree? If it’s something fundamental to the way you direct the direction you’re going in, then you may you may have a problem. But if it’s not fundamentals of the direction, it may be something that can just be adjusted, and it can be adjusted quite easily. That makes sense. Okay, anyone else? Let me just ask, you mentioned that we can join the organisation that you just gave an example of in 2012, that the chief execs main aim was to reduce costs. Yep. And I heard you mentioned logistics was the elimination of the whole logistics operation, outsourced all of outsource the whole of their logistics operations. They started with the UK. And they’re currently looking at the rest of the world, in terms of outsourcing the whole of the logistics operations. So that’s a major change for the business, it probably took them a year and a half to actually go through. The numbers were very clear, within about six, within about nine months, six months, the numbers were very clear that everyone knew the numbers would be delivered. It was actually trying to change the business and trying to bring the business along with that, that’s taken another nine months to actually get that delivered. So it is about change. But it’s also about change happens slowly. It ain’t gonna happen fast. Okay. Anyone else coming over?  Regarding the people, sometimes you have to let them have consultants come to one of our classes that instead so that there’s more motivation among employees. But is that really possible?


There’s been plenty of studies that prove that if you are making a change, and you’re going to need more people within two years, that actually those check that making people redundant doesn’t actually deliver the value that it will last for. You will have to pay redundancy costs, you’ll have to pay all of those kinds of things that go out. So you know, does it does it? Is it real? Is it reality? In terms of what happens? Yes, people do go people are made redundant people leave. People walk away. That’s the reality is is the prime objective to do that and most of the programmes I’ve been on the prime objective is not been to remove people, the prime objective has been to change the people. The problem is whether the people don’t choose not to go along with that. We all know about the change cycle. But if they choose fundamentally that they don’t agree with it, that’s where the issue comes, are the benefits in doing that, it all depends on the skill set. Depends what you’re trying to do with the business. If you’re trying to vertically integrate in terms of the same market, you may need to keep those skills if you’re trying to horizontally move, and you want to do something completely different. You may need a whole new skill set in which case, you need different people. Again, that change is about the people. It’s one of the fundamentals of the changes, it’s about people, your business is about people, any business is about people, people have to deliver whatever you need them to deliver. It’s not about anything. It’s not about anything else. If the people aren’t there, if the workers aren’t there to deliver, the leader will be sitting very lonely. Okay. To answer that. Okay, what’s nice and easy. Anyone else?


Do you think that all good leaders are good managers? 

Oh,There’s an interesting, interesting one there. And I don’t know if anyone’s ever seen an interview with Bill Gates. Somebody, a guy called Jeremy Paxman tried to embarrass Bill Gates and say to him, Well, I believe you know, you’re not a very good manager, is that true? And he said, Yes, I absolutely 100% agree, I’m not a good manager. That’s why I pay for good managers. Okay, so that’s, that’s an example of a person who’s built, but B, which is the largest company in existence, okay. And, you know, he has donated half of what most of his wealth, and now built himself back up to the richest man on the planet. So, you know, we can argue and say, all leaders, are all leaders, good managers? I’m not sure they are. I think there are some good leaders, there are some good managers, there are some that good at both, and some that are not good, either. That’s absolutely fine. It’s about knowing what you what you’re good at, and about working to those advantage, working to their strengths. And we all have strengths, everyone’s got strengths, there are people you work with that you think, actually, you know, I don’t want to work with these people, or I work very well, but they work in a very different way. To me, it’s about appreciating that and working and working within that to anyone else.  I have a course. practical question on working with senior management. Actually, we disagree in terms of practice, while we manage people. As a result, a lot of people are leaving the company. The way how, as we as a meeting management need to convince people to actually change.

I mean, my Is there a is there an answer is I don’t know the specifics of the case. But what I would suggest is building try to build an understanding try to build a relationship between the two, the issue is is where the where the walls come. As soon as the walls come up, it’s going to be very difficult to create that cross understanding in there trying to understand their motivation before understanding yours. And I think that’s what a lot of people when I’ve seen a lot of people can’t get is, why is it happening? What’s the reason it’s happening? Why you import in imposing this onto us? Is there a reason is the logic behind it? Is there an understanding, and if they haven’t explained that, that’s where it becomes difficult. We both of us can say that. Something must be some people are leaving, everybody sees there’s some particular people who don’t see if they want to see.

It’s difficult if they don’t want to talk to you, it’s very difficult to speak to people who don’t want to talk back with you. You know, it’s always going to be difficult in those situations. Absolutely. And that’s why all I can do is keep challenging, keep all execution suggested keep challenging, keep pushing, I can’t guarantee that will give you the answer. But just keep challenging and see if you can understand. It’s the typical thing that I’ve seen in that situation a lot of times is that the person who’s challenging is continually throwing their opinion over. And it’s trying to say, I don’t you know, don’t listen to me, I don’t want you to listen to me. I just want to hear why that’s all and see what their answer is. A lot of people, you know, stroke their ego a little bit. People have egos especially, you know, I think one of the things that I would fundamentally say, exists in a lot of corporations, is what I call the human bubble is that you have a lot of people you have very few people at the top, a few people at the bottom, you’ve got this big thing called the middle and the Too many people in the middle and a lot companies, okay, and they’re all fighting for their own possessions. Man at the top, generally is people at the top, generally quite open, generally quite easy to talk to people at the bottom, generally quite open quite easy to talk to people in the middle. They’re all protecting their own little fiefdoms. have a chat? What do you lose by if you if you’re already having a problem? What are you losing by? Well, you’re gonna get sacked anyway. That’s the question. That’s That’s the point. If it’s going to happen anyway, then what would you lose by panda? how passionate you are about it? That’s the question. So my friends, somebody I know who’s a very senior nurse within the NHS, she disagreed with what was going on when speak to the head of the trust. And she shouldn’t have done. It wasn’t her role to do that he was five levels above her. And he talked to her. They talked it through, and they worked out a plan to be able to make the change without her management knowing that she’d spoken to him. So I can’t tell you that there’s a perfect answer. there never will be. It’s about trial and error. Really. That’s all. Anyone else? 

Thank you, Roger. I know, we got to ask you why you actually decided to make change from consultants to effects as you’re already making patient and consultants.  That you I’ll give you a very simple answer, money I can give you I can give you all the chapter and verse and everything else. The reality is is I worked on the Ministry of Defence programme, I worked Monday to Monday to Saturday, pretty much away from home every day for nearly two years. Most of my work was being done with external contractors, who I’d actually trained previously who were earning about three times the amount that I was earning. So I decided it’s time for me to go that way. Everyone makes a decision in life. I could have carried on in the consultancy, what I looked at was my career in the consultancy, and said there are two ways to go and a consultant. So for those of you know, people in anyone who knows anyone in KPMG, in the search, you either go to a partner or you leave within three years, that’s pretty much the way they go. Any of those businesses, so if you’re either a lifetime employee, or you leave, okay, and I got to my two three years and decided, not for me, okay, great experience. I work for a smaller consultancy. Very nice consultants. I loved every minute of it, loved working at the consultancy, but decided I wanted to more money. Okay. So anymore. I studied a course that doesn’t exist anymore. It was called a bat, which was European Business and Technology. So it’s business studies, French and engineering. So I lived in France for a year I did a degree in France while I was over there. Also did engineering, so design and the wonderful stuff and Business Studies. Okay, thank you very much.

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